KAAYAL AND MAAYAL

[A S MURTY]

Friends, main aapke is forum mein yeh doosri dafa hi haazir ho paya
hun. Rafi Sahab ke ek sunehre gaane mein do aise alfaaz hain jinka
mujhe koi matlab samjhaaye. Gana hai film : dooj ka chaan se liya hua
aur gaane ke bol hain : sun-e-mahjabeen mujhe tujhse ishq nahin.
pehle hi antare mein yeh do alfaaz hain :

yun main tera kaayal hun, naaz-d-ada par maayal hun

kaayal

maayal

kya yeh Urdu zubaan se liye gaye hain ya phir Afghani labz hain ?

ab koi bata sakta ho ki in do alfaazon ke maayne kya hain to behad
kadrdaan rahunga.

[Naseer]

Post by A S MURTY
Friends, main aapke is forum mein yeh doosri dafa hi haazir ho paya
hun. Rafi Sahab ke ek sunehre gaane mein do aise alfaaz hain jinka
mujhe koi matlab samjhaaye. Gana hai film : dooj ka chaan se liya hua
aur gaane ke bol hain : sun-e-mahjabeen mujhe tujhse ishq nahin.
yun main tera kaayal hun, naaz-d-ada par maayal hun
kaayal
maayal
kya yeh Urdu zubaan se liye gaye hain ya phir Afghani labz hain ?
ab koi bata sakta ho ki in do alfaazon ke maayne kya hain to behad
kadrdaan rahunga.

Murty Sahib, aadaab

The words are:

qaa'il rhyming with qaatil and it means "convinced", "go along with",
"admit" etc but I think it is best to translate the words in context.

maiN teraa qaa'il huuN means I accept/admit/acknowledge/go along with
what you are, what you stand for etc etc. ya'nii maiN maantaa huuN.

qaa'il literaly means "kahne vaalaa".
maa'il means "jhukne vaalaa"

maa'il honaa means something like "lean towards", "jhuknaa".

terii mast adaa (or is it naaz-o-adaa) par maa'il huuN kaa matlab hai
kih terii mast adaa mujhe apnii tarf jhukaa letii hai, khiiNch letii
hai etc etc. jii haaN, yih donoN alfaaz Urdu ke haiN.

A few corrections, in your sentences.

ma'ne

qadr-daan

(alfaaz is plural of lafz."do lafzoN ke" not "do alfaazoN ke..".)

Naseer

[A S MURTY]

Post by Naseer

Post by A S MURTY
Friends, main aapke is forum mein yeh doosri dafa hi haazir ho paya
hun. Rafi Sahab ke ek sunehre gaane mein do aise alfaaz hain jinka
mujhe koi matlab samjhaaye. Gana hai film : dooj ka chaan se liya hua
aur gaane ke bol hain : sun-e-mahjabeen mujhe tujhse ishq nahin.
yun main tera kaayal hun, naaz-d-ada par maayal hun
kaayal
maayal
kya yeh Urdu zubaan se liye gaye hain ya phir Afghani labz hain ?
ab koi bata sakta ho ki in do alfaazon ke maayne kya hain to behad
kadrdaan rahunga.

Murty Sahib, aadaab
qaa'il rhyming with qaatil and it means "convinced", "go along with",
"admit" etc but I think it is best to translate the words in context.
maiN teraa qaa'il huuN means I accept/admit/acknowledge/go along with
what you are, what you stand for etc etc. ya'nii maiN maantaa huuN.
qaa'il literaly means "kahne vaalaa".
maa'il means "jhukne vaalaa"
maa'il honaa means something like "lean towards", "jhuknaa".
terii mast adaa (or is it naaz-o-adaa) par maa'il huuN kaa matlab hai
kih terii mast adaa mujhe apnii tarf jhukaa letii hai, khiiNch letii
hai etc etc. jii haaN, yih donoN alfaaz Urdu ke haiN.
A few corrections, in your sentences.
ma'ne
qadr-daan
(alfaaz is plural of lafz."do lafzoN ke" not "do alfaazoN ke..".)
Naseer

Naserbhai bohat shukriya aapne mujhe sahi matlab samjhaye bhi aur Urdu
mein meri galtiyon ko bhi sudhaara.

[Jamil]

Post by Naseer

Post by A S MURTY
Friends, main aapke is forum mein yeh doosri dafa hi haazir ho paya
hun. Rafi Sahab ke ek sunehre gaane mein do aise alfaaz hain jinka
mujhe koi matlab samjhaaye. Gana hai film : dooj ka chaan se liya hua
aur gaane ke bol hain : sun-e-mahjabeen mujhe tujhse ishq nahin.
yun main tera kaayal hun, naaz-d-ada par maayal hun
kaayal
maayal
kya yeh Urdu zubaan se liye gaye hain ya phir Afghani labz hain ?
ab koi bata sakta ho ki in do alfaazon ke maayne kya hain to behad
kadrdaan rahunga.

Murty Sahib, aadaab
qaa'il rhyming with qaatil and it means "convinced", "go along with",
"admit" etc but I think it is best to translate the words in context.
maiN teraa qaa'il huuN means I accept/admit/acknowledge/go along with
what you are, what you stand for etc etc. ya'nii maiN maantaa huuN.
qaa'il literaly means "kahne vaalaa".
maa'il means "jhukne vaalaa"
maa'il honaa means something like "lean towards", "jhuknaa".
terii mast adaa (or is it naaz-o-adaa) par maa'il huuN kaa matlab hai
kih terii mast adaa mujhe apnii tarf jhukaa letii hai, khiiNch letii
hai etc etc. jii haaN, yih donoN alfaaz Urdu ke haiN.
A few corrections, in your sentences.
ma'ne
qadr-daan
(alfaaz is plural of lafz."do lafzoN ke" not "do alfaazoN ke..".)
Naseer

It is curious how both the meanings of maa'il, literal and abstract,
correspond to the two meanings in English - the literal meaning (to be
inclined, as the tower of Pisa) and well, to be inclined, as in "the
voters are now inclined to support" such and such. In Urdu, however,
maa'il is rarely used nowadays, if ever, in the literal sense. If you
say "vuh donoN aik duusre ki taraf maa'il the", the meaning conveyed
would be "both of them were attracted to each other", not they were
literally leaning towards each other.

qaa'il has a somewhat similar case. The literal meaning (in Arabic)
as Naseer Sahib has pointed out, is speaker, but that is not the
meaning that the word ever has in contemporary Urdu as far as I know.
The word almost always means to be convinced or to convince as in
"maiN is baat ka qaa'il huuN" or "us ne mujhey qaa'il kar diyaa."

This brings me to the point: many words mean different things in
different languages, even if the words come from a common language
and even if the languages in question are closely related, as are Urdu
and Farsi. Examples are the word ilzaam, which means necessity in
(contemporary) Farsi but accusation in Urdu; takliif means assignment
in Farsi, but is trouble in Urdu. Similarly taqriir (F; report) (U:
speech); kasiif (F: concentrated, U: dirty), and many, many others.

Incidentally, one example has always amused me, that of the exchange
of two words between Urdu and Hindi. In Urdu the loser of an election
accuses the other party of "dhaaNdlii" in election, while in Hindi the
winners are guilty of "be-iimaani".

Jamil

[Naseer]

janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.

Post by Jamil
This brings me to the point: many words mean different things in
different languages, even if the words come from  a common language
and even if the languages in question are closely related, as are Urdu
and Farsi.  Examples are the word ilzaam, which means necessity in
(contemporary) Farsi but accusation in Urdu; takliif means assignment
speech); kasiif (F: concentrated, U: dirty), and many, many others.

An interesting topic.

Have you ever thought about reasons for this variance? How about this
as an explanation.

Like any language, a word may have several meanings. All the examples
that you have provided above are examples of Arabic words. If one
cares to take a look in an Arabic dictionary, one is surprised to see
so many definitions included against a single verb or noun entry.
Meanings with close affinity with each other could be grouped into
sets. I would like to suggest that from amongst the meanings of a
particular word, one meaning has become "crystalised" in Urdu and
another in Farsi. Or, a particular meaning has acquired an extended
meaning yet still connected to the source meaning.

Let us begin with "ilzaam", which has the "Arabic" meaning of coersion/
compulsion. But, if we were to look at the verb, these are the
meanings listed: I shall attempt to put them into sets.

1. to force/compell/press/
2. to enjoin/to impose (as a duty)/to obligate
3. to force proof on someone/force someone to accept an argument

I believe Farsi's necessity would fall under 2. Extension in meaning
of 3 could result in "accusation" in Urdu.

takliif:

1. to commission/charge/entrust
2. to assign (a task/job)
3. to cost
4. to take the trouble/go to the trouble of/ bother (someone)

Farsi takes meaning 2 and Urdu meaning 4.

taqriir

Amongst many meanings are..

1. to report
2 to relate/to tell

I would suggest that Farsi "report" is linked to 1 and Urdu "speech"
to 2.

kasiif

1. dense/compact/heavy
2. coarse/crude
3. viscous/sirupy

Here Farsi "concentrated" would fall into set 1 and Urdu "dirty"
could, with a bit of imagination, be extended to "dirty" 2.

Post by Jamil
Incidentally, one example has always amused me, that of the exchange
of two words between Urdu and Hindi.  In Urdu the loser of an election
accuses the other party of "dhaaNdlii" in election, while in Hindi the
winners are guilty of "be-iimaani".

Very interesting observation, Jamil Sahib!

Naseer

[Manohar]

Post by Naseer
janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.

Post by Jamil
This brings me to the point: many words mean different things in
different languages, even if the words come from  a common language
and even if the languages in question are closely related, as are Urdu
and Farsi.  Examples are the word ilzaam, which means necessity in
(contemporary) Farsi but accusation in Urdu; takliif means assignment
speech); kasiif (F: concentrated, U: dirty), and many, many others.

An interesting topic.
Have you ever thought about reasons for this variance? How about this
as an explanation.
Like any language, a word may have several meanings. All the examples
that you have provided above are examples of Arabic words. If one
cares to take a look in an Arabic dictionary, one is surprised to see
so many definitions included against a single verb or noun entry.
Meanings with close affinity with each other could be grouped into
sets. I would like to suggest that from amongst the meanings of a
particular word, one meaning has become "crystalised" in Urdu and
another in Farsi. Or, a particular meaning has acquired an extended
meaning yet still connected to the source meaning.
Let us begin with "ilzaam", which has the "Arabic" meaning of coersion/
compulsion. But, if we were to look at the verb, these are the
meanings listed: I shall attempt to put them into sets.
1. to force/compell/press/
2. to enjoin/to impose (as a duty)/to obligate
3. to force proof on someone/force someone to accept an argument
I believe Farsi's necessity would fall under 2. Extension in meaning
of 3 could result in "accusation" in Urdu.
1. to commission/charge/entrust
2. to assign (a task/job)
3. to cost
4. to take the trouble/go to the trouble of/ bother (someone)
Farsi takes meaning 2 and Urdu meaning 4.
taqriir
Amongst many meanings are..
1. to report
2  to  relate/to tell
I would suggest that Farsi "report" is linked to 1 and Urdu "speech"
to 2.
kasiif
1. dense/compact/heavy
2. coarse/crude
3. viscous/sirupy
Here Farsi "concentrated" would fall into set 1 and Urdu "dirty"
could, with a bit of imagination, be extended to "dirty" 2.

Post by Jamil
Incidentally, one example has always amused me, that of the exchange
of two words between Urdu and Hindi.  In Urdu the loser of an election
accuses the other party of "dhaaNdlii" in election, while in Hindi the
winners are guilty of "be-iimaani".

Very interesting observation, Jamil Sahib!
Naseer

janaab-i-Nasir Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.

Takllif means home work in Farsi

Manohar

[Naseer]

Post by Naseer
janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.

Post by Jamil
This brings me to the point: many words mean different things in
different languages, even if the words come from  a common language
and even if the languages in question are closely related, as are Urdu
and Farsi.  Examples are the word ilzaam, which means necessity in
(contemporary) Farsi but accusation in Urdu; takliif means assignment
speech); kasiif (F: concentrated, U: dirty), and many, many others.

An interesting topic.
Have you ever thought about reasons for this variance? How about this
as an explanation.
Like any language, a word may have several meanings. All the examples
that you have provided above are examples of Arabic words. If one
cares to take a look in an Arabic dictionary, one is surprised to see
so many definitions included against a single verb or noun entry.
Meanings with close affinity with each other could be grouped into
sets. I would like to suggest that from amongst the meanings of a
particular word, one meaning has become "crystalised" in Urdu and
another in Farsi. Or, a particular meaning has acquired an extended
meaning yet still connected to the source meaning.
Let us begin with "ilzaam", which has the "Arabic" meaning of coersion/
compulsion. But, if we were to look at the verb, these are the
meanings listed: I shall attempt to put them into sets.
1. to force/compell/press/
2. to enjoin/to impose (as a duty)/to obligate
3. to force proof on someone/force someone to accept an argument
I believe Farsi's necessity would fall under 2. Extension in meaning
of 3 could result in "accusation" in Urdu.
1. to commission/charge/entrust
2. to assign (a task/job)
3. to cost
4. to take the trouble/go to the trouble of/ bother (someone)
Farsi takes meaning 2 and Urdu meaning 4.
taqriir
Amongst many meanings are..
1. to report
2  to  relate/to tell
I would suggest that Farsi "report" is linked to 1 and Urdu "speech"
to 2.
kasiif
1. dense/compact/heavy
2. coarse/crude
3. viscous/sirupy
Here Farsi "concentrated" would fall into set 1 and Urdu "dirty"
could, with a bit of imagination, be extended to "dirty" 2.

Post by Jamil
Incidentally, one example has always amused me, that of the exchange
of two words between Urdu and Hindi.  In Urdu the loser of an election
accuses the other party of "dhaaNdlii" in election, while in Hindi the
winners are guilty of "be-iimaani".

Very interesting observation, Jamil Sahib!
Naseer

janaab-i-Nasir  Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
Takllif means home work in Farsi
Manohar

Manohar Sahib, aadaab

"Home Work" in any language would be nothing but "takliif"!:)

Naseer