Salma se dil lagaa kar.............

[Zoya]

Friends,

I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)

My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".

In 1950s, when dad was an undergraduate student in Govt College Ludhiana, his Geography professor used to quote from this nazm often. Interestingly, dad was one of the rare students who took Physics-Geography combination in his BS, later he switched to English literature for MA and Doctorate.

Coming back to the nazm, dad tells me that when he met his old Geography professor during a college alumni meet in the 70s, he told him that the main thing he remembered from those lectures was Salma! The professor recited the whole nazm again on stage. :-)

This nazm is so hummable. I recently did a google search to see if any singer had recorded it. Guess what, the only audio recording I could find is in the voice of Deedar Singh Pardesi, an accomplished ghazal and Punjabi folk singer, who also sang for some Hindi movies. Deedar Singh was based in Kenya, and moved to UK later. Incidentally, he is a cousin of the eminent Punjabi poet Surjit Patar, who is a very close friend of my dad. Small world!

I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.

Now, I have two questions.

1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?

Thanks,

_______Zoya

[B.G. M.]

Post by Zoya
Friends,
I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
In 1950s, when dad was an undergraduate student in Govt College Ludhiana, his Geography professor used to quote from this nazm often. Interestingly, dad was one of the rare students who took Physics-Geography combination in his BS, later he switched to English literature for MA and Doctorate.
Coming back to the nazm, dad tells me that when he met his old Geography professor during a college alumni meet in the 70s, he told him that the main thing he remembered from those lectures was Salma! The professor recited the whole nazm again on stage. :-)
This nazm is so hummable. I recently did a google search to see if any singer had recorded it. Guess what, the only audio recording I could find is in the voice of Deedar Singh Pardesi, an accomplished ghazal and Punjabi folk singer, who also sang for some Hindi movies. Deedar Singh was based in Kenya, and moved to UK later. Incidentally, he is a cousin of the eminent Punjabi poet Surjit Patar, who is a very close friend of my dad. Small world!
I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.
http://youtu.be/kfY1h0MghDI
Now, I have two questions.
1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
Thanks,
_______Zoya

Waa…h! What a down to earth nazm!
Pardesi ki aavaaz or singing is very clear and pleasant to hear.
Mazaa aa gayaa sun kar!
Thanks for posting Zoya ji!👍🙏
==================================

[Zoya]

Post by B.G. M.
Waa…h! What a down to earth nazm!

Beautiful indeed, BGM sahib. Akhtar Shirani was a master of such nazms.

Post by B.G. M.
Pardesi ki aavaaz or singing is very clear and pleasant to hear.
Mazaa aa gayaa sun kar!
Thanks for posting Zoya ji!👍🙏

You are most welcome. Deedar Singh Pardesi is a really good singer, classically trained. His voice has a distinctive 'khanak'. One of his most famous songs is "ambi daa booTa", a beautiful long poem written by the famous Punjabi poet Prof Mohan Singh. ('ambi' is raw mango). I feel very lucky that when I was a young child, Prof Mohan Singh used to be our neighbor. I still have clear memories of sitting quietly in his home many times, absorbing all the academic and poetic discussions going around me. Heavenly. If you understand some Punjabi, you may want to listen to this song, it is a classic. Here is a link.

And here is one more 'Salma' nazm, another Akhtar Shirani and Deedar Singh Pardesi combination. I am sure you will like this one also:

_______Zoya

[Naseer]

Post by Zoya
Friends,
I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
Now, I have two questions.
1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?
Thanks,
_______Zoya

Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.

2. Chhipnaa/chhupnaa are both cited in Platts although Urdu LuGhat has no trace of chhipnaa. Neither is chhipnaa mentioned in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah. So, the conclusion is "chhupnaa" is the dominant and perhaps exclusive form in Urdu. I have never used chhipnaa in Urdu or Punjabi. I have not heard a Punjabi person use this verb when speaking Punjabi. In fact the verb we use in our Punjabi is "chhupNRaa".

1. In the pre-Islamic days of Arabia, there were annual fairs in which Arab poets competed with the best poets of the day and recited their love poetry. The custom was that the poet would not reveal the identity of the beloved and would use assumed names. The most common of these ficticious names were عذرا، عنیزہ and سلمیٰ . In English poetry Wordsworth's Lucy was a ficticious name. Akhtar Sherani has used shahnaaz, raiHaanah as well as 3azraa and Salmaa. Salmaa is the most-often used name to depict the embodiment of the perfect woman, whose characterisics are complete in every way! See page 39 of the following link for more details.

https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/akhtar-shirani-aur-uski-shayari-akhtar-shirani-ebooks (p39)

Naseer

[Zoya]

Post by Naseer
Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
2. Chhipnaa/chhupnaa are both cited in Platts although Urdu LuGhat has no trace of chhipnaa. Neither is chhipnaa mentioned in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah. So, the conclusion is "chhupnaa" is the dominant and perhaps exclusive form in Urdu. I have never used chhipnaa in Urdu or Punjabi. I have not heard a Punjabi person use this verb when speaking Punjabi. In fact the verb we use in our Punjabi is "chhupNRaa".

aadaab Naseer sahib,

Thanks for responding to my query. Interesting that Platts lists both versions. I agree that 'chhupnaa' is most likely the exclusive version in Urdu, and perhaps even in Hindi. However, since yesterday, I have been thinking about this usage in Punjabi and I have figured out why Deedar Singh Pardesi sang ' din chhipe'. I have never heard this particular phrase being called 'din chhupe', I kind of feel it is a compound word in Punjabi. Urdu speakers would normally say 'din Dhale', so it wouldn't even be an issue.

I have also often heard 'suuraj chhip gayaa' in Punjabi, almost never 'suuraj chuup gayaa'. In other contexts, 'chuup' is more common in Punjabi. Now I am really curious, do you say 'din chhupe' or 'din chhupe', honestly I have never heard it pronounced as 'din chhupe'. Maybe it is a regional thing? Remember, I speak typical Maalwa Punjabi, whereas Deedar Singh Pardesi's native village is in Do'aaba, and then there is Maajha! :-) I am also wondering what Prof RK has to say about chhupnaa/chhupaana in general, and 'din chhipe' in particular.

Post by Naseer
1. In the pre-Islamic days of Arabia, there were annual fairs in which Arab poets competed with the best poets of the day and recited their love poetry. The custom was that the poet would not reveal the identity of the beloved and would use assumed names. The most common of these ficticious names were عذرا، عنیزہ and سلمیٰ .

Makes perfect sense. Thanks.

In English poetry Wordsworth's Lucy was a ficticious name.

Yes, in fact dad had also mentioned Wordsworth's Lucy while talking about Sheerani's Salma.

Akhtar Sherani has used shahnaaz, raiHaanah as well as 3azraa and Salmaa. Salmaa is the most-often used name to depict the embodiment of the perfect woman, whose characterisics are complete in every way! See page 39 of the following link for more details.

Ahhhhh, the perfect woman. No wonder it is fictitious. :-)

Post by Naseer
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/akhtar-shirani-aur-uski-shayari-akhtar-shirani-ebooks (p39)

Thanks for the link, will check it out.

Post by Naseer
Naseer

_______Zoya

P.S. Had you heard of Prof Mohan Singh's 'ambi daa buuTa' previously? When I listened to it in Deedar Singh's voice yesterday, after a gap of many years, I noticed that it has numerous typical Punjabi words and phrases. Perhaps it is difficult to understand for BGM sahib and other non Punjabi listeners.

[Zoya]

Post by Naseer
Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.
2. Chhipnaa/chhupnaa are both cited in Platts although Urdu LuGhat has no trace of chhipnaa. Neither is chhipnaa mentioned in Farhang-i-Asafiyyah. So, the conclusion is "chhupnaa" is the dominant and perhaps exclusive form in Urdu. I have never used chhipnaa in Urdu or Punjabi. I have not heard a Punjabi person use this verb when speaking Punjabi. In fact the verb we use in our Punjabi is "chhupNRaa".

aadaab Naseer sahib,

Thanks for responding to my query. Interesting that Platts lists both versions. I agree that 'chhupnaa' is most likely the exclusive version in Urdu, and perhaps even in Hindi. However, since yesterday, I have been thinking about this usage in Punjabi and I have figured out why Deedar Singh Pardesi sang ' din chhipe'. I have never heard this particular phrase being called 'din chhupe', I kind of feel it is a compound word in Punjabi. Urdu speakers would normally say 'din Dhale', so it wouldn't even be an issue.

I have also often heard 'suuraj chhip gayaa' in Punjabi, almost never 'suuraj chhup gayaa'. In other contexts, 'chhup' is more common in Punjabi. Now I am really curious, do you say 'din chhupe' or 'din chhipe', honestly I have never heard it pronounced as 'din chhupe'. Maybe it is a regional thing? Remember, I speak typical Maalwa Punjabi, whereas Deedar Singh Pardesi's native village is in Do'aaba, and then there is Maajha! :-) I am also wondering what Prof RK has to say about chhupnaa/chhipnaa in general, and 'din chhipe' in particular.

Post by Naseer
1. In the pre-Islamic days of Arabia, there were annual fairs in which Arab poets competed with the best poets of the day and recited their love poetry. The custom was that the poet would not reveal the identity of the beloved and would use assumed names. The most common of these ficticious names were عذرا، عنیزہ and سلمیٰ .

Makes perfect sense. Thanks.

In English poetry Wordsworth's Lucy was a ficticious name.

Yes, in fact dad had also mentioned Wordsworth's Lucy while talking about Sheerani's Salma.

Akhtar Sherani has used shahnaaz, raiHaanah as well as 3azraa and Salmaa. Salmaa is the most-often used name to depict the embodiment of the perfect woman, whose characterisics are complete in every way! See page 39 of the following link for more details.

Ahhhhh, the perfect woman. No wonder it is fictitious. :-)

Post by Naseer
https://www.rekhta.org/ebooks/akhtar-shirani-aur-uski-shayari-akhtar-shirani-ebooks (p39)

Thanks for the link, will check it out.

Post by Naseer
Naseer

_______Zoya

P.S. Had you heard of Prof Mohan Singh's 'ambi daa buuTa' previously? When I listened to it in Deedar Singh's voice yesterday, after a gap of many years, I noticed that it has numerous typical Punjabi words and phrases. Perhaps it is difficult to understand for BGM sahib and other non Punjabi listeners.

[Naseer]

Zoya SaaHibah aadaab.

Post by Zoya
Thanks for responding to my query. Interesting that Platts lists both versions. I agree that 'chhupnaa' is most likely the exclusive version in Urdu, and perhaps even in Hindi. However, since yesterday, I have been thinking about this usage in Punjabi and I have figured out why Deedar Singh Pardesi sang ' din chhipe'. I have never heard this particular phrase being called 'din chhupe', I kind of feel it is a compound word in Punjabi. Urdu speakers would normally say 'din Dhale', so it wouldn't even be an issue.
I have also often heard 'suuraj chhip gayaa' in Punjabi, almost never 'suuraj chhup gayaa'. In other contexts, 'chhup' is more common in Punjabi. Now I am really curious, do you say 'din chhupe' or 'din chhipe', honestly I have never heard it pronounced as 'din chhupe'. Maybe it is a regional thing? Remember, I speak typical Maalwa Punjabi, whereas Deedar Singh Pardesi's native village is in Do'aaba, and then there is Maajha! :-) I am also wondering what Prof RK has to say about chhupnaa/chhipnaa in general, and 'din chhipe' in particular.

"din chhupnaa" and "din chhupe" are both attested in the Urdu LuGhat.

Platts has "din chhipe" (see my reply to Raj Kumar SaaHib)

Akthar Sherani's family background is pashtuun (Pathan) which many centuries back settled in Tonk, Rajastan. Young Muhammad Dawood Khan (Akhtar Sherani) moved to Lahore at a very young age when his father was teaching there. But still, I do not think "chhipe" can be put down to Punjabi influence as "chhipnaa" is not Punjabi, to the best of my knowledge.

Naseer

[Raj Kumar]

Post by Zoya
Friends,
I have been thinking about posting this message for a while. Finally! :)
My dad has often talked about the Akhtr Sheerani nazm "basti ki laRkioN meN badnaam ho rahaa huuN, Salma se dil lagaa kar........".
This nazm is so hummable. I recently did a google search to see if any singer had recorded it. Guess what, the only audio recording I could find is in the voice of Deedar Singh Pardesi, an accomplished ghazal and Punjabi folk singer, who also sang for some Hindi movies. Deedar Singh was based in Kenya, and moved to UK later. Incidentally, he is a cousin of the eminent Punjabi poet Surjit Patar, who is a very close friend of my dad. Small world!
I am sharing the link to the audio recording here. I love this tune. For those interested, the complete Akhtar Sheerani nazm can be found on Rekhta and numerous other websites, Deedar Singh sang just some part of it.
http://youtu.be/kfY1h0MghDI
Now, I have two questions.
1. Dad tells me that in Urdu, 'Salma' is the generic fictional name poets/writers for any random girl. I did not know that, but now I am thinking about some other songs where this name has been used. Is it a fairly common practice in Urdu fiction? I mean is 'Salma' the proverbial Jane Doe in Urdu?

***ZS, aap ke is savaal ka tafseeli javaab to Naseer sahib faraaham kar chuke haiN, mujhe sirf itna hi kahna hai k AS ki kisi jeeti-jagti maHbuuba ka naam Salma nahiiN tha. unhoN ne is farzi naam ko apni shaa'iri meN bartaa aur is kasrat se aur is Khuubi se barta k logoN ki nigaahoN meN Salma aek jeeti-jaagti laRki ban ga'ii. vaise bhi, kaun aisa saa'ir hoga jo apni maHbuuba ka asl naam ist'emaal kar ke use jahaan bhar meN rusvaa kare?

maiN yeh bhi kahna chaahuuN ga k is farzi naam ko AS ke ilaava kisi deegar Urdu shaa'ir ne shaa'id hi ist'emaal kiyaa ho; kam-az-kam maiN ne to aisi ko'ii misaal nahiiN dekhi --- sivaaye is she'r ke

ka'ii Salmaa'eN dekhii haiN, ka'ii 'azraa'eN dekhii haiN
nigaah-e-Qais ne phir bhii ko'ii tum saa nahiiN dekhaa! :-) ***

Post by Zoya
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?

***is savaal par bhi Naseer sahib raushnii Daal chuke haiN, maiN do-aek baateN mazeed kahna chaahuuN ga:

1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?

2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.

3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.

4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)

I hope this helps.

R.K.***

[Zoya]

***ZS, aap ke is savaal ka tafseeli javaab to Naseer sahib faraaham kar chuke haiN, mujhe sirf itna hi kahna hai k AS ki kisi jeeti-jagti maHbuuba ka naam Salma nahiiN tha. unhoN ne is farzi naam ko apni shaa'iri meN bartaa aur is kasrat se aur is Khuubi se barta k logoN ki nigaahoN meN Salma aek jeeti-jaagti laRki ban ga'ii. vaise bhi, kaun aisa saa'ir hoga jo apni maHbuuba ka asl naam ist'emaal kar ke use jahaan bhar meN rusvaa kare?

Prof RK,

Thanks for your detailed and informative response to my questions. It makes perfect sense why Urdu poets wouldn't use the real name of a beloved. Even more so, until relatively recently, the beloved in Urdu poetry mostly used to be gender neutral, so not much room for names anyway.

maiN yeh bhi kahna chaahuuN ga k is farzi naam ko AS ke ilaava kisi deegar Urdu shaa'ir ne shaa'id hi ist'emaal kiyaa ho;

This is something I was wondering about, and now have clarity due to your and Naseer sahib's answers.

kam-az-kam maiN ne to aisi ko'ii misaal nahiiN dekhi --- sivaaye is she'r ke

ka'ii Salmaa'eN dekhii haiN, ka'ii 'azraa'eN dekhii haiN
nigaah-e-Qais ne phir bhii ko'ii tum saa nahiiN dekhaa! :-) ***

But of course! :-))
"sab se judi, sab se alag, sab se anokhi". :-)))

1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?

Honestly, I'm not sure what to say. Outside of my expertise.

2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.

Prof RK, I need to discuss this further with some Hindi ustaads. My understanding is that 'chhupnaa' is the common usage in Hindi also, at least in modern Hindi. Is it exclusive? Not sure. Maybe Irfan sahib can add to this part of the query, he may be more comfortable with classical Hindi than I am.

3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.

Hmmmm, an interesting reason. Maybe you didn't get to meet any 'real' Punjabi women until later, had to cross a couple of rivers?! :)

4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)

Seriously though, I have heard Punjabi men use it, especially 'din chhipe', exactly like Deedar Singh did. As I mentioned in my previous reply, I have never heard 'din chhupe', never ever. Will you please address just this particular term i.e.do you actually say 'din chhupe'?
May be there would be no confusion for me if 'chhupe' were not combined with 'din'? I totally agree that 'chhip' would be unacceptable in general, but Deedar Singh saying "din chhipe" may not be so bad? Again, I am not really arguing in his favor, just still wondering about "din chhipe". One follow up question for you, is this written usage common in Urdu, or is it mostly 'din Dhale'?

I hope this helps.
R.K.***

Of course, it really helps, as always. :)

Thank you,

_______Zoya

[Raj Kumar]

Post by Zoya

***4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)***

Seriously though, I have heard Punjabi men use it, especially 'din chhipe', exactly like Deedar Singh did. As I mentioned in my previous reply, I have never heard 'din chhupe', never ever. Will you please address just this particular term i.e.do you actually say 'din chhupe'?

$$$ ZS, In answer to your direct question as posed above, my response is the following:

I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$

Post by Zoya
May be there would be no confusion for me if 'chhupe' were not combined with 'din'? I totally agree that 'chhipe' would be unacceptable in general, but Deedar Singh saying "din chhipe" may not be so bad? Again, I am not really arguing in his favor, just still wondering about "din chhipe". One follow up question for you, is this written usage common in Urdu, or is it mostly 'din Dhale'?

$$$Urdu writers do use "din chhupe", as AS has done, but I have seen "din Dhale" used more often. B/W, I checked this nazm at ReKhta where it is available in full in all three versions --- Urdu, Hindi and Roman.
aap Urdu version ki to baat hi chhoRiye kyuuN-k vahaaN to chhape, chhipe aur chhupe sab baraabar hotehaiN. :-(
albatta, donoN Hindi aur Roman versions meN sareehan "din chhupe" likkhaa hai, "din chhipe" nahiiN likkhaa!

agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.

aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

[Naseer]

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

Post by Raj Kumar
I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$

"din" *is* used in the sense of the sun. Few quotes from Platts....

din ćaṛhnā or ćaṛh-jānā, v.n. the sun to rise; din ćhipnā, v.n. The day to disappear, the sun to set:

din ḍhalnā, v.n. the sun to decline

din nikalnā, v.n. The day to appear, the sun to rise, to dawn:

From Urdu LuGhat

din tuluu3 honaa = the sun rising

din Duubnaa = the sun setting

din chhupnaa

http://udb.gov.pk/result.php?search=%D8%AF%D9%86+%DA%86%DA%BE%D9%BE%D9%86%D8%A7&posi=offline&__ncforminfo=wOr3hFVYQGH_itezBZZ5u-hZRphQ03B6x1_lug4L5WXtWKemrcwxaBwN3GgneufyDXKMbP3BHbtNDRuOy6T3TPaGtijejEAwax57A1N4ggk%3D

To add to all this, in Punjabi one has "dyuuN" meaning "sun". At least this is the word I've know since childhood. I have always thought that "din" has a connection with "dyuuN".

Post by Raj Kumar
agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.
aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

I agree with the above.

Naseer

[Zoya]

Post by Raj Kumar
I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
$$$Urdu writers do use "din chhupe", as AS has done, but I have seen "din Dhale" used more often. B/W, I checked this nazm at ReKhta where it is available in full in all three versions --- Urdu, Hindi and Roman.
aap Urdu version ki to baat hi chhoRiye kyuuN-k vahaaN to chhape, chhipe aur chhupe sab baraabar hotehaiN. :-(
albatta, donoN Hindi aur Roman versions meN sareehan "din chhupe" likkhaa hai, "din chhipe" nahiiN likkhaa!

Thanks Prof RK, this seems to pretty much wrap up the discussion. To summarize, 'chuupnaa' is the accepted pronunciation currently, and has been for a while, in Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. 'chhipnaa' has its roots perhaps in classical Hindi, and may have somehow migrated to parts of Punjab. As I said earlier, I have always heard 'din chhipe' in Punjabi, I consider it sort of a compound word, an exception to the rule. If this is somehow connected to classical Lakhnavi Urdu or Hindi, even better! :)

Post by Raj Kumar
agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.

Agreed. Even I must have had a problem with this pronunciation at some level, or I wouldn't even have noticed it and raised the question in the first place.

Post by Raj Kumar
aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

Enough of 'din chhipe/chhupe/Dhale', I am ready to flip and am now actually thinking about the Shiv Kumar Batalavi poem:
"ajj din chaRhyaa tere rang vargaa"! :)
Continuing with the thought....... this particular misraa by Shiv inspired a pretty nice Bollywood song a few years ago, maybe I'll put it on my next request list for Irfan sahib in the she'r-o-naghmaa thread!

It's been fun. Thank you.

From Akhtar Sheerani to Shiv Kumar Batalavi (via Deedar Singh Pardesi),

_______ Zoya :-)

[Naseer]

Post by Raj Kumar
I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

If you happened to be Shashi Kapoor, then you would use the verb "chhipnaa". But if you were Younis Parvez, You would use "chhupmaa"!:-)

(at 2:15)

Naseer

[Naseer]

Post by Raj Kumar
I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

If you happened to be Shashi Kapoor, then you would use the verb "chhipnaa". But if you were Younis Parvez, You would use "chhupnaa"!:-)

http://youtu.be/gKncAb9k2JE (at 2:15)

Naseer

[Naseer]

Post by Raj Kumar
1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?

INTERESTINGLY (to copy your style:-)), Farhang-i-Asafiyyah compiler states that "chhipnaa" is Lukhnow Urdu and "chhupnaa" is Delhi style. I am not too sure about this. Why? Because a very learned gentleman, like your good self, used to visit another language group. He hailed from Lucknow and stated that they don't use "chhipnaa" but he had heard someone from Amroha pronounce the word as "chhipnaa" although he could n't say if everyone from that area pronounced the word so.

Post by Raj Kumar
2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.
3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.
4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)
I hope this helps.

I agree wholeheartedly with your replies under 2 and 4. For 3, I fear you could be susceptible to some accusations of being a sexist! You could try to wiggle out of the predicament by saying that perhaps the Punjabi ladies, compared with the Punjabi gents perhaps watch more Hindi dramas and films and due to this disproportional exposure, are likey to be influenced more by Hindi pronunciations!:-)

Film "do raaste" has a song "chhup ga'e saare sitaare o'e kyaa baat ho ga'ii", written by Anand Bakshi, a fully fledged Punjabi, like you and me. But "lo chhip gayaa chaaNd" by Pyarelal Santoshi who was born in Bombay -- was not a Punjabi. I think this settles the issue!:-)

Naseer

[Zoya]

Post by Naseer

Post by Raj Kumar
1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?

INTERESTINGLY (to copy your style:-)), Farhang-i-Asafiyyah compiler states that "chhipnaa" is Lukhnow Urdu and "chhupnaa" is Delhi style. I am not too sure about this. Why? Because a very learned gentleman, like your good self, used to visit another language group. He hailed from Lucknow and stated that they don't use "chhipnaa" but he had heard someone from Amroha pronounce the word as "chhipnaa" although he could n't say if everyone from that area pronounced the word so.

All right, gentlemen. Lucknow and Amroha?!
Wow! Deedar Singh Pardesi is in good company for sure.
Amroha ---- the likes of Kamaal Amrohi, Raees Amrohvi and best of all, Jaun Eliya! :-)

What more can I say after this?! :)

Thank you.

_______Zoya

[Naseer]

Post by Raj Kumar

Post by Zoya
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?

1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.
3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.
4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)
I hope this helps.
R.K.***

muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.

I've been able to dig further into the hidden mysteries of the verb چھپنا and here is the difinitive answer in all its glory!:-)

agar aap se us pih vuh aa gire
to faanuus meN sham3 chhiptii phire

(misra3 no. 128, siHr-ul-bayaan - Mir Ghulam Hasan, Hasan Dihlavi)

This masnavii was written in 1785 about which its author says...

nahiiN masnavii, hai yih ik phul-jhaRii
musalsal hai motii kii goyaa laRii

na'ii tarz hai aur na'ii hai zabaaN
nahiiN masnavii, hai yih siHr-ul-bayaaN

rahe gaa jahaaN meN miraa is se naam
kih hai yaadgaar-i-jahaaN yih kalaam

The late Urdu scholar, Rasheed Hasan Khan has compiled a critical research book on this masnavi [siHr-ul-bayaan -Anjuman-i-Taraqqii Urdu (Hind) 2010] and in the third addendum he talks about "talaffuz aur imlaa". I should add that the printed copy of the masnavi that Rasheed Hasan Khan has resorted to is the very first printed copy of this book, printed under the supervision of John Gilchrist of the Fort William College, Calcutta fame. We know the college was founded in 1800. The beauty of this printed work is that it shows the short vowels (zer and pesh) and when either of these is not present, one must assume a zabar.

On page 418 of this compilation, Rasheed Hasan Khan has the word "chhiptii" on the second line of the page. He has designated the letter "fe" ف to indicate Fort William College copy. I quote...

"ف meN chh ke niiche zer lagaa hu'aa hai. 3ahd-i-Mir Hasan meN fusHaa-i-dihlii ke Halqe meN "چھپنا" aur is masdar (infinitive) ke mushtaqqaat (derivatives) ba-kasr-i-avval musta3mal the. Insha ne daryaa-i-lataafat meN likhaa hai, "chhipnaa aur chhupnaa" meN kasre (zer) aur zamme (pesh) kii muxaalifat hai. fasiiH bi_lkasr hai aur zamme ke saath ahl-i-muGhalpurah kaa lahjah hai. ahl-i-Urdu kii zabaan nahiiN""

So, it seems that upto Insha's time at least Urdu speakers were saying "chhipnaa".

"lekin raftah raftah is masdar ke mushtaqqaat dihlii meN ba-zamm-i-avaal musta3mal ho ga'e. Mirza Ghalib* ne BeKhabar ko ek xat meN likhaa hai, "aur haaN Hazrat! vuh majmuu3ah chhape gaa bi_lfatH (zabar ke saath) yaa chhupe gaa bi_lzamm (pesh ke saath). unhii ko ek aur xat meN likhaa hai..."majmuu3ah-i-nasr-i-Urdu kaa intibaa3 agar mere likhe hu'e diibaache par mauquuf hai to us majmuu3e kaa chhap jaanaa bi_lfatH maiN nahiiN chaahtaa balkih chhup jaanaa biz_zamm chaahtaa huuN"...haaN fusHaa-i-lakhnau shruu3 hii se is masdar aur is ke mushtaqqaat ko bah kasr-i-avval bolte the. Jalaal ne apne luGhat sarmaayah-i-zabaan-i-Urdu meN likhaa hai, "yih lafz fusHaa-i-lakhnau kii zabaan par bi_lkasr hai aur ahl-i-dihlii kii zabaan par biz_zamm". yahii baat mu'allif-i-Nur-ul-LuGhaat (a well known Urdu dictionary) ne likhii hai. Asafiyyah (an older well known Urdu dictionary) meN "chhupnaa" hai aur is se vaaziH taur par ma3luum hotaa hai kih Insha, Mir Amman aur Mir Hasan ke zamaane meN dihlii meN musta3mal "chhipnaa" (ba-kasr-i-avval) raftah raftah "chhupnaa" (ba zamm-i-avval) se badal gayaa (aur ab dihlii meN "chhupnaa hii kahte haiN). haaN Mir Amman ne ganj-i-xuubii meN iltizaam ke saath is masdar ke mushtaqqaat ko ba-kasr-i-avval likhaa hai aur baaGh-o-bahaar meN bhii aise lafz ba-kasr-i-avval milte haiN.........isii binaa par چھپنا aur is ke jumlah mustaqqaat ko har jagah ba-kasr-i-avval likhaa gayaa hai. (ف meN bhii har jagah yahii suurat hai)".

So, in conclusion, blame the people of "MuGhalpurah" who have single handedly turned the tide from "chhipnaa" to "chhupnaa"!:-) So much so that even the Lakhnavii gentleman I mentioned in my earlier post has lost all trace of "chhipnaa" from his consciousness!:-) But where is Mughalpurah?!

Naseer

[Raj Kumar]

Post by Naseer

Post by Raj Kumar

Post by Zoya
2. Deedar Singh says "Chhip" instead of "Chhup" (Hide). I vaguely remember having had this discussion with RK sahib and/or Irfan sahib in the past. Is "Chhipnaa" acceptable in Urdu, or is it a definite No No? Maybe it is the Punjabi touch and should be avoided when singing pure Urdu poetry?

1. According to Platts, both chhupnaa and chhipnaa are correct pronunciations, though SURPRISINGLY chhipnaa is #1 and chhupnaa is #2. Consequently, in all the subsequent entries, he uses chhipnaa, not chhupnaa. What do you say to that?
2. Urdu speaking people, and those of us who read and write Urdu, say chhupnaa exclusively. There is hardly any room for chhipnaa in Urdu. Please keep in mind that Platts is a dictionary not only of Urdu but of classical Hindi as well.
3. For you to think that chhipnaa might be the Punjabi touch is not true. In my early life, I never heard any Punjabi saying chhipnaa, they all said chhupnaa. Later on, especially after partition, I did begin to hear chhipna among some Punjabis --- but only among females. The reason could be that Punjabi women (I mean, Indian Punjabi women) are more influenced by Hindi than Punjabi men are. To date, I haven't heard any Punjabi man saying chhipnaa.
4. If Deedar Singh said chhipe, then it must have been the influence of Hindi in his life, not because he is a Punjabi; it doesn't matter whether he comes from Maajha, Doaba or Malwa. However, I can guarantee that AS wouldn't have been happy to hear someone sing his poem and say chhipe instead of chhupe! :-)
I hope this helps.
R.K.***

muHtaram Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab.
I've been able to dig further into the hidden mysteries of the verb چھپنا and here is the difinitive answer in all its glory!:-)
agar aap se us pih vuh aa gire
to faanuus meN sham3 chhiptii phire
(misra3 no. 128, siHr-ul-bayaan - Mir Ghulam Hasan, Hasan Dihlavi)
This masnavii was written in 1785 about which its author says...
nahiiN masnavii, hai yih ik phul-jhaRii
musalsal hai motii kii goyaa laRii
na'ii tarz hai aur na'ii hai zabaaN
nahiiN masnavii, hai yih siHr-ul-bayaaN
rahe gaa jahaaN meN miraa is se naam
kih hai yaadgaar-i-jahaaN yih kalaam
The late Urdu scholar, Rasheed Hasan Khan has compiled a critical research book on this masnavi [siHr-ul-bayaan -Anjuman-i-Taraqqii Urdu (Hind) 2010] and in the third addendum he talks about "talaffuz aur imlaa". I should add that the printed copy of the masnavi that Rasheed Hasan Khan has resorted to is the very first printed copy of this book, printed under the supervision of John Gilchrist of the Fort William College, Calcutta fame. We know the college was founded in 1800. The beauty of this printed work is that it shows the short vowels (zer and pesh) and when either of these is not present, one must assume a zabar.
On page 418 of this compilation, Rasheed Hasan Khan has the word "chhiptii" on the second line of the page. He has designated the letter "fe" ف to indicate Fort William College copy. I quote...
"ف meN chh ke niiche zer lagaa hu'aa hai. 3ahd-i-Mir Hasan meN fusHaa-i-dihlii ke Halqe meN "چھپنا" aur is masdar (infinitive) ke mushtaqqaat (derivatives) ba-kasr-i-avval musta3mal the. Insha ne daryaa-i-lataafat meN likhaa hai, "chhipnaa aur chhupnaa" meN kasre (zer) aur zamme (pesh) kii muxaalifat hai. fasiiH bi_lkasr hai aur zamme ke saath ahl-i-muGhalpurah kaa lahjah hai. ahl-i-Urdu kii zabaan nahiiN""
So, it seems that upto Insha's time at least Urdu speakers were saying "chhipnaa".
"lekin raftah raftah is masdar ke mushtaqqaat dihlii meN ba-zamm-i-avaal musta3mal ho ga'e. Mirza Ghalib* ne BeKhabar ko ek xat meN likhaa hai, "aur haaN Hazrat! vuh majmuu3ah chhape gaa bi_lfatH (zabar ke saath) yaa chhupe gaa bi_lzamm (pesh ke saath). unhii ko ek aur xat meN likhaa hai..."majmuu3ah-i-nasr-i-Urdu kaa intibaa3 agar mere likhe hu'e diibaache par mauquuf hai to us majmuu3e kaa chhap jaanaa bi_lfatH maiN nahiiN chaahtaa balkih chhup jaanaa biz_zamm chaahtaa huuN"...haaN fusHaa-i-lakhnau shruu3 hii se is masdar aur is ke mushtaqqaat ko bah kasr-i-avval bolte the. Jalaal ne apne luGhat sarmaayah-i-zabaan-i-Urdu meN likhaa hai, "yih lafz fusHaa-i-lakhnau kii zabaan par bi_lkasr hai aur ahl-i-dihlii kii zabaan par biz_zamm". yahii baat mu'allif-i-Nur-ul-LuGhaat (a well known Urdu dictionary) ne likhii hai. Asafiyyah (an older well known Urdu dictionary) meN "chhupnaa" hai aur is se vaaziH taur par ma3luum hotaa hai kih Insha, Mir Amman aur Mir Hasan ke zamaane meN dihlii meN musta3mal "chhipnaa" (ba-kasr-i-avval) raftah raftah "chhupnaa" (ba zamm-i-avval) se badal gayaa (aur ab dihlii meN "chhupnaa hii kahte haiN). haaN Mir Amman ne ganj-i-xuubii meN iltizaam ke saath is masdar ke mushtaqqaat ko ba-kasr-i-avval likhaa hai aur baaGh-o-bahaar meN bhii aise lafz ba-kasr-i-avval milte haiN.........isii binaa par چھپنا aur is ke jumlah mustaqqaat ko har jagah ba-kasr-i-avval likhaa gayaa hai. (ف meN bhii har jagah yahii suurat hai)".
So, in conclusion, blame the people of "MuGhalpurah" who have single handedly turned the tide from "chhipnaa" to "chhupnaa"!:-) So much so that even the Lakhnavii gentleman I mentioned in my earlier post has lost all trace of "chhipnaa" from his consciousness!:-) But where is Mughalpurah?!
Naseer

***Very interesting findings, Naseer sahib!

in baatoN se saaf zaahir hai k jis zamaane meN ham rah rahe haiN, aihl-e-Urdu ki nazar meN is lafz ka talaffuz "chhupna" hi ravaa hai, "chhipna" ravaa nahiiN hai. yaqeenan, AS ne bhi "din chhupe" hi kahaa hoga, "din chhipe" nahiiN kahaa hoga (more on it later).

jahaaN tak mera Khayaal hai, yahaaN "muGhalpura" se muraad "Shahjahaanabad" (ya'ani Dihlii) hai. voh "MuGhalpura" jo Lahore ke paas mashriq ki jaanib vaaqe'a hai --- cannot be. :-)

Raj Kumar***

[Naseer]

Post by Raj Kumar
***Very interesting findings, Naseer sahib!
in baatoN se saaf zaahir hai k jis zamaane meN ham rah rahe haiN, aihl-e-Urdu ki nazar meN is lafz ka talaffuz "chhupna" hi ravaa hai, "chhipna" ravaa nahiiN hai. yaqeenan, AS ne bhi "din chhupe" hi kahaa hoga, "din chhipe" nahiiN kahaa hoga (more on it later).
jahaaN tak mera Khayaal hai, yahaaN "muGhalpura" se muraad "Shahjahaanabad" (ya'ani Dihlii) hai. voh "MuGhalpura" jo Lahore ke paas mashriq ki jaanib vaaqe'a hai --- cannot be. :-)
Raj Kumar***

Yes, I knew it would not be the Mughalpura of Lahore. Wikipedia has this to mention on the topic. I think Shahjahanabad came afterwards.

"The Delhi Sultanate was ruled by Alauddin Khalji, who had taken the throne of Delhi after assassinating his uncle in 1296. The Chagatai Khanate controlled Central Asia, and its leader since the 1280s was Duwa Khan who was second in command of Kaidu. Duwa was active in Afghanistan, and attempted to extend Mongol rule into India. Negudari governor Abdullah, who was a son of Chagatai Khan's great grandson, invaded Punjab with his force in 1292, but their advance guard under Ulghu was defeated and taken prisoner by Alauddin's predecessor Jalaluddin Khalji. Around 4,000 Mongol soldiers (called Mughals in Delhi) who surrendered converted to Islam. The suburb they lived in was appropriately named *Mughalpura*. Chagatai tumens were beaten by the Delhi Sultanate several times in 1296-1297. The Mongols thereafter repeatedly invaded northern India. On at least two occasions, they came in strength."

Naseer

[Naseer]

Post by Raj Kumar
***Very interesting findings, Naseer sahib!
in baatoN se saaf zaahir hai k jis zamaane meN ham rah rahe haiN, aihl-e-Urdu ki nazar meN is lafz ka talaffuz "chhupna" hi ravaa hai, "chhipna" ravaa nahiiN hai. yaqeenan, AS ne bhi "din chhupe" hi kahaa hoga, "din chhipe" nahiiN kahaa hoga (more on it later).
jahaaN tak mera Khayaal hai, yahaaN "muGhalpura" se muraad "Shahjahaanabad" (ya'ani Dihlii) hai. voh "MuGhalpura" jo Lahore ke paas mashriq ki jaanib vaaqe'a hai --- cannot be. :-)
Raj Kumar***

Yes, I knew it would not be the Mughalpura of Lahore. Wikipedia has this to mention on the topic. I think Shahjahanabad came afterwards.

"The Delhi Sultanate was ruled by Alauddin Khalji, who had taken the throne of Delhi after assassinating his uncle in 1296. The Chagatai Khanate controlled Central Asia, and its leader since the 1280s was Duwa Khan who was second in command of Kaidu. Duwa was active in Afghanistan, and attempted to extend Mongol rule into India. Negudari governor Abdullah, who was a son of Chagatai Khan's great grandson, invaded Punjab with his force in 1292, but their advance guard under Ulghu was defeated and taken prisoner by Alauddin's predecessor Jalaluddin Khalji. Around 4,000 Mongol soldiers (called Mughals in Delhi) who surrendered converted to Islam. The suburb they lived in was appropriately named *Mughalpura*. Chagatai tumens were beaten by the Delhi Sultanate several times in 1296-1297. The Mongols thereafter repeatedly invaded northern India. On at least two occasions, they came in strength."

Also see, "History of Medieval India" by V.D. Mahaja, second paragraph of the link.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JnscEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=Mughalpura+Delhi+India&source=bl&ots=2PodfyHMZJ&sig=ACfU3U0uGcLlu4REKN1gBfiT7HsBjZ_ezQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrg6HGiPrxAhXbRkEAHczyAJo4ChDoATAJegQIFRAD#v=onepage&q=Mughalpura%20Delhi%20India&f=false

Naseer

[Zoya]

Post by Raj Kumar
I cannot imagine that I'll ever use the word 'chhipna' in place of 'chhupna'. So, for me, 'din chhipe' is a definite no no. And you'll be surprised to know that I cannot bring myself to say 'din chhupe' either! For me, both these terms lack logic because, as I understand it, "din nahiiN chhupta, suuraj chhupta hai --- din to iKhtetaam ko pahuNchta hai, ya'ani Dhal jaata hai. The day is an "interval of time", it is not a "material object" which will go into hiding; it is the sun, a massive object, that hides below the horizon. That is why I have never said and I'll never say "din chhupe" ------- only "din Dhale".$$$
$$$Urdu writers do use "din chhupe", as AS has done, but I have seen "din Dhale" used more often. B/W, I checked this nazm at ReKhta where it is available in full in all three versions --- Urdu, Hindi and Roman.
aap Urdu version ki to baat hi chhoRiye kyuuN-k vahaaN to chhape, chhipe aur chhupe sab baraabar hotehaiN. :-(
albatta, donoN Hindi aur Roman versions meN sareehan "din chhupe" likkhaa hai, "din chhipe" nahiiN likkhaa!

Thanks Prof RK, this seems to pretty much wrap up the discussion. To summarize, 'chhupnaa' is the accepted pronunciation currently, and has been for a while, in Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi. 'chhipnaa' has its roots perhaps in classical Hindi, and may have somehow migrated to parts of Punjab. As I said earlier, I have always heard 'din chhipe' in Punjabi, I consider it sort of a compound word, an exception to the rule. If this is somehow connected to classical Lakhnavi Urdu or Hindi, even better! :)

Post by Raj Kumar
agarche hameN ka'ii baar ReKhta meN aGhlaat milii haiN magar yahaaN lafz "chhupe" ko Ghalat nahiiN kah sakte kyuuN-k daur-e-Haazir meN aihl-e-Urdu is lafz ko yuuN hi bolte haiN aur yuuN hi likhte haiN. aur agar ko'ii sahib AS ki is Ghazal ko gaate haiN to unheN chaahiye k ise saHiiH talaffuz ke saath gaa'eN. aage un ki marzi.

Agreed. I must have had a problem with this pronunciation at some level, or I wouldn't even have noticed it and raised the question in the first place.

Post by Raj Kumar
aap ka hiteshi, Raj Kumar***

Enough of 'din chhipe/chhupe/Dhale', I am ready to flip and am now actually thinking about the Shiv Kumar Batalavi poem:
"ajj din chaRhyaa tere rang vargaa"! :)
Continuing with the thought....... this particular misraa by Shiv inspired a pretty nice Bollywood song a few years ago, maybe I'll put it on my next request list for Irfan sahib in the she'r-o-naghmaa thread!

It's been fun. Thank you for the $$$ response. :)

From Akhtar Sheerani to Shiv Kumar Batalavi (via Deedar Singh Pardesi),

_______ Zoya :-)